The City and Borough of Juneau may have finally found a place for all-terrain vehicles to drive, the city’s parks and landscape superintendent told an Assembly committee Monday, but how long it will take to develop it and how much it will cost remain open questions.
George Schaaf gave a brief presentation to the Assembly Public Works and Facilities Committee at its Monday meeting, showing the location of the proposed park for off-highway vehicles near Bridget Cove, some 36 miles from downtown Juneau.
“Altogether, it looks to be about 1,200 acres, just about two square miles,” said Schaaf of the portion of CBJ land being looked at for the park. “It’s about three miles from north to south, and at the widest part, it’s about two-thirds of a mile.”
Schaaf said a number of concerns have to be balanced in the park’s planning and development, including the needs of user groups themselves and the city’s obligation toward cost-efficiency and sustainability.
“We know that Juneau has a longstanding need for an OHV park,” Schaaf added.
The debate over off-roading access in Juneau has gone on for years. Controversy erupted over a proposed ATV park at Fish Creek Quarry on Douglas Island last decade, and the project was ultimately shelved.
Assembly member Randy Wanamaker, who chairs the Public Works and Facilities Committee, said after the meeting that he remembers hearing about dirt bike enthusiasts as far back as the 1980s who wanted dedicated space to ride.
Wanamaker told staff at the meeting that he still gets questions from the public about ATV usage in Juneau.
“From time to time, I get contacted by a member of the community that’s wondering where we are with finding a place for them to ride,” said Wanamaker, who asked staff to whom he should direct public questions about the park.
John Bohan, acting director of the Engineering Department, advised Wanamaker that Schaaf would be the best contact.
Meanwhile, Schaaf has some questions of his own.
“Right now, we really don’t know what we have out there,” Schaaf said of the proposed site. He said requests for proposals were due last Friday on generating an inventory and “resource map” of the area, in order to determine both what areas could be used and what areas should be avoided, like wetlands and cliffs.
Schaaf added, “Hopefully, this RFP’s going to provide us with a really good inventory of what the site currently has, we’re going to have some control points, and we’re going to get a good idea of where we can and cannot place sustainable trails.”
The planning and design phases for trails are set to begin this winter, Schaaf told the committee, and he said after the meeting that he hopes some trailwork can be done next summer. But in response to a question from Assembly member Karen Crane, Schaaf said it is not currently possible to set a timeframe for the project’s completion.
“Until we know what the project scope is, I can’t tell you how much it’ll cost or how long it’ll take,” Schaaf said. “If we’re building 5 kilometers of trail, that’s going to have a price and a construction window that’s going to be different from if we’re building 15 or 20 kilometers.”
Due to the “relatively small area” of the proposed park, Schaaf said, trails would have to provide “challenge without speed.”
“At 40 miles an hour, you can imagine you can traverse a three-mile-long parcel very quickly,” Schaaf said. “So it’s going to be a really important thing to work with user groups to develop interesting elements and challenging features that are going to keep them interested over the long term.”
Schaaf said some businesses and individuals have expressed interest in volunteering to build trails.
“I think it will be a very important thing to have the volunteers,” said Schaaf. “There still will probably still be some material costs, though.”
Wanamaker said after the meeting that while cost is a concern, he recognizes the longstanding desire of the off-roading community for space to drive. He said he is pleased with ATV enthusiasts’ expressed willingness to contribute, remarking, “They’re really willing to pitch in and help, and consider things such as the cost of liability and what they can do to help offset that.”
• Contact reporter Mark D. Miller at 523-2279 or at mark.d.miller@juneauempire.com.
Comments (31)
Add commentAnother 'need'?
No, it's a want. What's it going to cost the City to develop and manage it?
The proponents of an ATV park made lots of claims how they would take care of the construction and management...well, it's time to step up.
I wonder what Echo Ranch is
I wonder what Echo Ranch is going to think about this. Looks like the park will butt up right next to their property. Can you imagine how loud that's gonna be?
three questions:
1 - Will snowmachiners also be able to use the space as well (it seems silly to not try for an area both groups can use - what happened with the Lemon Creek option?)
2 - How will the user groups pay (at least 50-70%) of the ongoing costs?
3 - How will they police the area, and make sure people don't cross the boundaries?
Also, it would be nice if Kowee meadow cabin and Mussel beach cabin were noted on this map, why not include all the landmarks - - ? Isn't the trail near this park? Just asking.
CBJ management
What could go wrong with CBJ running and maintaining this? I can envision a homogenized watered down facility. Complete with overreaching ordinances and safety regulations. A money pit for sure.
@orion
I agree with you, but I can also see lack of management resulting in another Echo Cove fiasco with drunken morons trashing everything in the vicinity.
Let the ATV guys come up with a management & enforcement plan. And let them post a bond so if (when) damage occurs, they're liable.
If you have enough money to afford an ATV, you have enough money to pay for the management of the park.
FINNALY
Its about time CBJ does something for the off road vehicle users. Maintenance and management may be a little confusing in the beginning but the bottom line is that there will be another activity for the youth to take part in besides drugs and alcohol. I think it would be great if there was a Forest Service Officer or a Trooper who would randomly go on the grounds to give breathalizers to riders and keep the fun sober. All in all these grounds could be a tool for something positive.
full size too
Be great to incorporate at least some trail areas that supported full size vehicles too (jeeps/trucks/etc).
Point Bridget State Park...
...separates this city land from Echo Ranch. The proposed area is a long way from the nearest ambulance. Echo Ranch may be relieved to get ATV riders away from Echo Cove where they currently rip and tear. Trails will only serve as access to jumping off points for offroaders to blaze their own exploits. I suppose it will aid in the extracation of accident victims. You can bet your paycheck that there will be a few at best. ATV park proponents always claim self-policing responsible ridership. What part of "off road" do they think we don't understand? One need only observe practices at Echo Cove to judge that concept. I saw a white Blazer pulling up to the road through Golbelt's camping area from back in the woods dragging an ATV trailer. Very responsible. I can see this tract of land turning into one big, muddy, bloody mess.
Great for Juneau!
If the illustration is accurate, it looks like the proposed area is on the uphill side of the road so it wouldn't affect Echo Ranch or the cabins at Point Bridget.
I agree with the sentiments that a few bad apples can spoil the whole bunch. That's the problem we're seeing at Echo Cove. The only way to stop this from occurring at any new ORV site is to legitimize its use as much as possible. If families don't feel comfortable taking their kids for a day of riding because of drinking, unsafe or obnoxious behavior, then it will turn into a free-for-all like Echo. Preventing this outcome starts with clear and reasonable rules of use that ARE ENFORCED!!!
If JPD, the State Troopers or the Forest Service are unable or unwilling to have a regular and continued presence, then don't even bother constructing this new site, It's just going to give the recreational activity another black eye.
Look at all of our trouble spots: Montana Creek Road, North Douglas, Echo Cove. They’re all as far from the community as you can get, and thus the least traveled and visited by law enforcement and the general public. If you wanted to guarantee a trouble free place to ride, you’d put it next to the Police Department in Lemon Creek.
If you’re tired of what’s happening at Echo Cove you really should support the creation of a well designed and regulated ORV park. This community can’t continue to lump all 4wheeler owners into the outlaw category!! It's not fair and it's 180 degs out of line with the rest of Alaska!
I’m just afraid that the small, but vocal community of biologists and researchers in this town that stop almost all other development will try to kill this project too. If you’re reading this, I’m begging you, if you want to clean up Echo, then help build an ORV site somewhere else!!!
just
as Alaskan Teacher mentioned with the fire bug problem, have an on site host
PS lat & swimmer good points
The noise objections
are laughable. Almost all of these machines are quieter than most cars. From the closest points of this proposed property to Echo Ranch, almost 2 miles, Cowee Meadow cabin, just over 2 miles, Blue Mussel cabin, just under 3 miles. These distances are from the parking lot at the trailhead of Point Bridget State Park. If riders are at the far end, it's almost 5 miles away. Much farther than many boats headed to Echo Cove, with significantly larger engines.
I do however agree that anyone that is involved in an accident there is a long way from help. Could the CBJ encourage improved cellular service out the road? There are a few spots that you can get a signal past Peterson Creek, but they are spotty and weak.
About time.
Get er done!
Rough Cut &Juneauitis.........Right on!
Cut it up into cabin properties
We've got 1,200 acres for this stuff when Juneau has unbelievably high property and rental costs?? If we've got this much land to lay waste to then cut it up into cabin lots and sell it cheap. Cut back on the regs for building and let some people live out there that are willing to rough it a bit and be independent.
hhhmmmm.........
Rough cut - you including the cost for the land and full time patrol?
Dartbucks - I agree that the proposed area is far enough away from Kowee and Mussel cabins.....
But I think you are a little nuts if you think a car is quieter than an ATV! MAYBE if you were revving the car as much as you could and the ATV was just idling, but usually it's the other way around.
Entrance to the park should require some kind of park license/safety class/contract - - Include a basic first aid class as part of the training. Maybe give a break in park entry fee cost to someone who has full Wilderness First Responder training. An agreement to wear helmets, no alcohol, no trash, stay on trails, etc. would be critical. You break the rules you lose your priviledges. We keep talking about "a few bad apples" - and I think it probably is just a few - - - but I'm also guessing the ATV community knows exactly who those people are. Time for a little pressure by the majority of the group against those members maybe?
It would be a good opportunity for some riding/safety classes for kids. Start them out right.
The community could have some competitions/races during the year maybe.
Anyone know if the snowmachiners would be included?
I don't get it?
I really don't understand the mentality in this town. I love dirt bikes and own a combination on / off road bike. But we have 2 square miles of borough property in this town to commit to something like this when property and rent are so high they're crushing the life out of people?
If you cut that same amount up and provided no services but the ability to do your own thing you'd at least address the problem by taking some degree of pressure off.
@ skirz
are you talking about the road alonside the camping area behind the bathrooms?...that campiing area belongs to Docks & Harbors...Goldbelts area starts at the end of the sattelite rd at the far turnaround
While we are on the subject...
How about getting the "user groups" to start funding Parks and Recreation's bloated budget?
I think that this riding area is long past due since the City has been very carefully excluding ATV riders from any other access to public use property.
Btw: I am not an ATV owner or rider and frankly don't really like em much but, fair is fair.
Goldbelt land...
...is adjacent to Docks and Harbors and requires a camping permit from Goldbelt. It has been posted and barricaded from vehicle access though signs have been ignored, shot up and torn down. City signs have been similarly treated. Goldbelt Security occasionally patrols the area. More than you can say about CBJ. After all, those signs don't mean ME!
Arts Pay
According to the McDowell Group during 2010 the non-profit Arts Industry was a $7.1 million industry in Juneau that pumps viatal revenue into the community. provide $286,000 to CBJ and $442,00 to State of Alaska.
How much does the ATV group bring in?
No No No
We have enough noise and stink in and around town, not too many places to go to get away from it.
Why now do you want to bring your noise and stink out the road?
Since downtown is deserted between October and May, why not open it to the ATVers during that time? It wouldn't bother anybody since nobody is there anymore.
Reopen Dredge Lake!!
Reopen dredge lake !!! so much wasted land. I grew up riding motorcycles and snowmachines there. It really is the best place in juneau for a ATV rec area.
@flyfisher
Having one spot to legally ride an ATV is not bringing "noise and stink out the road". Seriously, you can't prohibit a perfectly acceptable activity in Juneau when it's a way of life throughout the rest of Alaska!
no and no
Neither perfectly acceptable nor a way of life through the rest of Alaska. It is a precious few that think they have the right to impair everybody else's quality of life.
folk festival
Yes, that would be a good place to get away from it.
Folk Festival
Bolsters the Juneau Economy that brings a lot of fiddle plain loggers to town.
Nimby whiners are
are at it again.. 100 non motorized trails in Juneau, and you still can't allow some motorized access?? Eaglecrest and all the Parks and Rec programs will never fully support themselves will they? I grew up here when we could ride at the rock dump and a few other areas in town without all the whiners.... You can ride snowmachines and ATVs everywhere else in AK, just not in JNU due to a very vocal bunch of Granolas. . Very sad that the elites in this town are so judgemental about anyone that likes to play on machines, we are not all drunks and vandals.
Let it go forward Mayor and Assembly
@No Cheech
"we are not all drunks and vandals."
I don't doubt that. However, some of the people that will use this proposed facility are exactly that.
Seems to me that the presumably responsible majority of ATVers (sorry, OHVers) should come up with a plan to ensure that there are no "unfortunate" incidents out there, if this project is permitted. The recent tragedy on Auke Lake should be a reminder not only to watercraft users, but to all users of recreational toys of any kind, that the best of intentions can go sadly wrong very quickly.
Definitely a want not a need.
Definitely a want not a need. How exciting, a few miles of trail, but then a person must have a pretty limited horizon to spend money on an atv in Juneau anyway where you can't use it.
ORV Park
Just to chime in here on this one . I think the city is looking at the Wrong site .Juneau NEEDS a moterized Park and in my way of thinking it should be located right beside Eagan Drive betten Vanderbuilt Road and Lemon Creek this area is large enough for a 1/4 mile dirt oval track and all the mogals dirk bikes could ask for its also close to the hospital and the police station and at time this area clould serve as a fair grounds. now this to me would make commen sence.
Use the dump
After the landfill is full, and we start burning again, or barging, or another dump location, we can make the dump the waste land so desired by ATVers. Look at any area already used here in Juneau by previous ATVers. Let the trash play on the trash. Close to the hospital and the police station. It will also cut down on the number of drunks driving out the road and back-safer all around, and less money wasted on a no win situation.