Robert Sewell, the organizer of a public meeting Wednesday at Douglas Public Library entitled “Twice the Ice!”, was very clear at the start of the meeting that it was going to be about building a second ice rink at Treadwell Ice Arena, not about a proposal to build a new facility in the Mendenhall Valley.
“Tonight is not a debate about which place to have the ice rink,” said Sewell, a Douglas resident who has inveighed against the Dimond Park ice rink proposal at multiple public meetings. “Tonight is a meeting focused on … the conclusion of the plan that has already been afoot for some number of years to have a second sheet of ice at Treadwell.”
Things did not exactly work out that way.
The first sign of trouble came when Sewell mentioned a legislative appropriation providing $650,000 for the planning and design of a new ice arena in Dimond Park, and one or two members of the audience briefly applauded.
Forging ahead, Sewell took few pokes at the Dimond Park proposal, calling the proposed $6.5 million budget “highly fanciful” and criticizing the appropriation pushed by Rep. Cathy Muñoz, R-Juneau, as “parochial.”
“It was a dog-ear of planning money only for one particular location without a public process,” Sewell said.
“You were saying she picked a specific site,” interjected attendee Sharon Wildes. “Why is that a problem, because that’s her district?”
“That’s just raw politics,” Sewell replied.
The dialogue went downhill quickly from there.
Wildes objected to what she characterized as Sewell “questioning (Muñoz’s) motives.”
“She got money for her district,” Wildes said. “What else could she do? … That’s what we elected her for.”
Sewell responded, “What we elect any representative for is to represent our collective interests, and not parochial ones.”
Juneau Adult Hockey Association Vice President Joe Geldhof eventually attempted to mediate.
“We’ve pretty much shown that for the most part, there’s demand for ice,” Geldhof said, receiving verbal agreement from Wildes and Sewell. “If we’re all agreed that we should have a second sheet of ice, how can we move forward on that agenda?”
“We can can stop dreaming about a place in the Valley,” Sewell answered, “because it’s not going to work. It’s going to go down.”
Sewell added, “I think it’s very unlikely that it will occur in the Valley, and the longer that’s held out as a plausibility, the more it jeopardizes public funds for any (plan).”
The factions represented at the meeting were not wholly geographic. Geldhof, who lives in West Juneau, spoke in favor of accepting the Valley site proposal, while Dixie Hood, who lives in the Valley, said she would prefer to look at expanding Treadwell.
As the arguing went on, Douglas resident Jon Heifetz spoke up from the back row to express his annoyance at the turn of events.
“I’m not pleased to be here. I’ve been fasting all day, it’s a Jewish holiday, I should be with my family,” Heifetz said, adding that he originally came to the meeting to learn about how a Treadwell expansion could be procured. “I’m pretty sad that this is turning out to be a meeting that is pitting Valley against Douglas.”
“Let me emphasize, I never intended this to take up Valley topics at all, and I don’t expect there should be any bad blood over talking about this alternative,” Sewell responded.
Sewell argued that Douglas needs Treadwell due to the question of “infrastructure equity.”
“If you bring up a kid in this part of town, you know that there’s not much other than Perseverance, running around in the weeds and playing hockey,” Sewell said. “And the reason why that’s related to this question of a second sheet is this. … If a Taj Mahal is built out in the Valley, what is the likelihood —”
A couple of attendees interrupted, objecting to Sewell’s wording.
“It’s a regular ice rink,” Wildes said firmly.
“Ice rink plus-plus,” Sewell amended, referring to one concept for a deluxe facility floated at a meeting last month (http://bit.ly/NUchlJ).
“Same size as the one in Fairbanks,” Wildes replied.
“Which is much bigger than here,” said Sewell. “If that was built, how much of a suck would there be of discretion, of participation and of revenues from the Treadwell? Remember that cost recovery is only 51 percent. And in order to have 51 percent at the new facility, you would have double — double — the total number of participants just to remain at 51 percent, all else equal.”
That did not sway Sewell’s skeptics.
“Isn’t that what a study would reveal?” Geldhof asked. “A real study that would look at a second sheet of ice would look at any impacts on the existing sheet of ice, on the scheduling, on the operations, on the diminishment to the community.”
Sewell said “the most important thing” to him is the community he said is centered on Treadwell.
“I am worried about that blowing away in the wind if you take the modest skating community that exists and stretch it out over 15 miles,” Sewell said.
Geldhof questioned how Sewell intends to actually get a second rink at Treadwell, now that the legislature has appropriated money to study a Dimond Park site.
“I’m absolutely committed to getting a second sheet of ice in Juneau. I’m also committed to enhancing and protecting the Treadwell Arena,” Geldhof said. He told Sewell, “I think you’re embarking on the wrong strategy to demand that the only sheet of ice that’s built as the second sheet of ice in this community has to be down here.”
But Sewell wasn’t budging.
“We need a second sheet, and I think we need to close ranks with the only option that is acceptable,” said Sewell, arguing that “fiscal conservatives” in Juneau will not approve of the Valley proposal if the City and Borough of Juneau — which has not committed either to building a new rink or operating it — has to pay for it.
“This stunt … was a very unfortunate approach to the project,” Sewell added, referring to the allocation. But he also suggested it was “helpful, because now we’re having a conversation” about the plans.
That appeared to further frustrate Geldhof, who interrupted, “It’s not a conversation. You’re demanding that the second sheet of ice must be built —“
Sewell cut Geldhof off, raising his voice.
“No, we’ve already had the cram-down strategy,” Sewell said, obviously irritated. “This is not me. I didn’t come up with this. … I didn’t cook up that this is going to be exclusively for the Valley.”
Geldhof was not satisfied by Sewell’s argument.
“My opinion is you may be able to generate enough support to block a second sheet of ice in the Valley,” Geldhof said. “I don’t see how you’re going to marshal the political support to get the capital to build a second sheet of ice in Douglas.”
“I guess that’s for future work, isn’t it?” Sewell replied.
Wildes said, “There is an ice rink here where your kid can skateboard down to the rink every day. He’s a very good skater as a result, probably one of the best in Juneau, which is awesome to watch. And I’d like to see other kids have the same opportunity, and I think the Valley can support two locations.”
When the meeting ended, prompted by the library’s 8 p.m. closure, the participants appeared no closer to consensus than they were when they started.
Reflecting on the meeting Thursday evening, Sewell said some positive things had come out of it, like being able to identify advocates on both sides of the issue.
“The meeting was what it was,” Sewell said. “But I felt like it was a nice start to a vocal articulation of the value of the Treadwell and the value of having a second sheet there.”
• Contact reporter Mark D. Miller at 523-2279 or at mark.d.miller@juneauempire.com.
Comments (48)
Add commentnice vocab
"inveigh"
"parochial"
Good SAT terms!
Not so fitted for the subject at hand.
"cross-check" and "hooking" come more to mind...
a heck of a lot of words
about a meeting gone wrong---A lot of space wasted on drama, with very little fact, which doesn't serve the issue either way.
You gotta love advisory
You gotta love advisory committees. Tthe only thing lacking is elephants and monkeys riding motorcycles.
Gotta love our city!
Juneau: the only place you'll find Alaskans arguing about ice.
Wow
Sewell must hate the children in the Valley. There is no reason to build a second sheet of ice in the same place. Mr. Sewell it's not about Douglas or the Valley it's about providing opportunities to participate in hockey to more kids. And more adults.
barnardj1
This has nothing to do with any advisory committee. Or didn't you read the article?
Real arena
Build a real arena, one that seats 3000 and sell beer there.
Build it in the valley so the TMHS students can have a team as well.
Just do it right this time, think of it 10-20 years down the road.
"What happens on the ice stays on the ice"
But what happens at the Douglas library make the Empire.
Well said,Sharon Wildes.
Thank you!
demand for ice???
anywhere else in North America, if an ice rink isnt booked from 4 am through after mid night, every day, there isnt any demand for ice and the rink is losing money.
Look at the rink schedule... lots of rental time available... http://www.juneau.org/parkrec/icerink/rinkschedule.php
Sounds like the group of self appointed important people need to clarify what "demand for ice" really means, ie... demand for ice time that fits between my wine social and doesnt keep me out too late so i can watch all my dvr'd honey boo boo shows...
We all need to get back to reality, put on our adult costumes and realize that there isnt any way to support 2 sheets of ice in Juneau without a real impact on LOCAL TAX Payers.
Typical hockey
...eventually just turns into a brawl on the ice.
Sewell says about Cathy
Sewell says about Cathy Munoz......................
“What we elect any representative for is to represent our collective interests, and not parochial ones.”
Robert, did you ever stop to think that a rink in the valley might actually BE the collective interest of the people of the entire City and Borough of Juneau and not just those of the People's Republic of Douglas?
And you think SHE has parochial interests? Gad, how parochial can you get when all you can consider is Douglas to the absolute exclusion of any other locale, talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
And just because of "Infrastructure Inequity" How about we take a look at the population inequity? How many people live in Douglas and how many people live in the Valley? You don't build a Centennial Hall in Tenakee just because of "Infrastructure Inequity"
Build the second rink in the Valley where it belongs, where people can actually get to it and utilize it conveniently.
Ms. Wildes is correct and well spoken.
Representative Munoz is anything but parochial except that she defends Juneau tirelessly. I would bet that by any measure - projects originated, projects supported, or projects she has accomplished - and as measured by number or dollar amount, Rep. M. has had more projects in the downtown and Douglas parts of Juneau than in her own district (before or after redistricting). And that is even considering her origination of the mining program simulators and support for the programs at the University, which is in her district of course. So Sewell is mistaken.
Moreover it could be that Sewell has no understanding of how funding and legislation are originated in the legislature. Constituents propose ideas, or pose problems that need legislative solutions (including funding of course). In this instance CBJ is deeply involved in legislative appropriations, has a dedicated lobbyist, etc. Legislation isn't done in a vacuum. It's true that the 90-day session compresses the process and the opportunities for public participation but Juneau people have a much better shot at working with legislators because we live in the capital (and many Juneau people seem to almost live in the Capitol).
I do not know the extent Rep. M. was involved in this specific appropriation. However, I know that this capital budget allocation was requested by many Juneau people, the request was made to the entire Juneau delegation, and no one was walking the halls of the Capitol giving Mr. Sewell's personal perspective. In a democracy if you want your viewpoint to be considered you have to show up.
The Facts Vs Fiction
The lack of truths behind Sewell's statements.
“When Treadwell arena was built, plans called for a second ice sheet there sometime in the future”
The original plan for a rink was for basically 4 walls, a roof and a refrigeration system for a sheet of ice. No locker rooms, office, concession room, referee room-none of that was in the original plan. The rink bond was for only $1 million and attached to a BartlettRegional Hospital bond. So if the hospital bond passed so did the $1 million for the rink. The location was selected because the parking, and utilities were already in place and the tennis courts where the rink is were rarely used and in disrepair. Douglas folks did not lead the way for the rink to get on the ballot. Their support came later mostly from the Douglas Fourth of July Committee. An additional $3 million came from sources such as Rasmussen grants to build the locker rooms, bleachers, etc
"There’s a vibrant skating and hockey community that has focused on use in Douglas for some years. That community needs to be enhanced and protected. If it’s spread out over 15 miles it’s difficult to see that the same level of coherence will occur and continue to evolve,” Sewell says"
This is really a statement without facts to back it up.
Going back to the early part of the 20th century skating and hockey in Juneau had their origins on Mendenhall Lake (see Skaters Cabin), Auke Lake, Melvin Park and Twin Lakes. The original Bill Spear Design Hockey team practiced on Twin Lakes and Melvin Park during the early 1980’s. Ice making and resurfacing equipment was kept in Jerry Nankervis" garage. Hockey did not come to Douglas until Treadwell was built in 2003.
The Juneau swim community has grown considerably since the valley pool opened. Accordoing to head coach Scott Griffith and board member Valerie Mertz membership in the Glacier Swim Club is up 25% and at capacity at BOTH pools. The adult masters swim program has doubled in membership with a before- work -program downtown and an after- work- program in the valley.
"It’s difficult to see how the city could justify having two Zamboni’s, two heating systems, two cooling systems, two staffing patterns, simply to add on a second sheet of ice" That is a significant additional expense.”
Since Treadwell was designed to have 1 sheet of ice the compressors are not suitable for 2 sheets of ice. A second sheet at Treadwell will require a separate compressor. The 2011 Alaks Housing Energy Audit of Treawell Arean shows that chiller and other energy systems at the arena are woefully inadequate for even the 1 sheet of ice. It is possible to use 1 Zamboni but very impractical and risky.
"Sewell calls it a resource equity as well as cost-control issue"
Wouldn't a rink in the valley as well as Douglas be resource equitable? With regard to cost control a 2nd sheet at Treadwell would cost at least $2.5 million and there does not appear to be any plans by CBJ to come up with that money But there is a real possibility of a $6.5 million gift from the state for a valley rink.
An excellent point...
"Remember that cost recovery is only 51 percent. And in order to have 51 percent at the new facility, you would have double — double — the total number of participants just to remain at 51 percent, all else equal.”
This is not about Douglas or the Valley.
This is not about where "most" of the people live (a whole 8 miles away).
This is about being responsible about future costs for maintenance, in a city where population has been flat for the 46 years I've lived here, and the city is already having trouble paying for the maintenance on the buildings it owns now.
There are wants and there are needs. This is a want. If the people who want a separate building are willing to fully fund it privately without my tax dollars, then go for it.
hug em - -
So, if the hockey community increased by 25%, equal with what anecdotally is said about the swim community - then both rinks, IF they were built at the same level (if the valley one were as proposed, costs would be higher) then both rinks would operate at around 35-40% return. That's not very good.
In addition - even if Treadwell needed an upgraded cooling system, it would STILL be far, far cheaper in the long run, considering staff and maintenance, than having a separate building.
And having one zamboni for two sheets of ice is "impractical and risky"? Based on what? I think that argument is fantasy.
It takes the zamboni about 4 minutes to service the ice. Stagger the playing times on each sheet of ice by 15-30 minutes. Done.
What is bothersome to me is
What is bothersome to me is that someone pointed out in the last article about this subject; the funds will come to Munoz if she votes to reduce oil taxes. If she does not vote to reduce oil taxes then the carrot to build the rink disappears. I would much rather suffer only having Treadwell arena than to let Big Oil get away with paying less taxes.
Ms Wildes Cares
Seems pretty obvious to me that Ms Wildes wants more kids to have the opportunities that have been available to Mr Sewills kid/s? With 17000 people in the valley "area" that is a lot more kids lives that could be impacted by the many adults that pour into kids and families in and around the ice community. Thank you for caring Ms Wildes
brownbear
You may be able to find a high school textbook on government at the Friends of the Library bookstore, and I recommend you do so and read that book. In the meantime you could study what actually occurred on HB110, thereby gaining an understanding of representative government. HB110 passed the House with broad support because that was the beginning of a process. No one believed HB110 could be enacted without major study and revision, and in fact it did not pass the 27th Alaska Legislature. Rep. M worked the process well, and there is nothing to hang around her neck: It would have had to come back to the House for further analysis and work had anything like HB110 passed the Senate. The process is the same in Congress, and in every other state capitol building. I am pleased Juneau is represented by someone who works the process to the best advantage of all!
Brownbear, are you Pat Forgey, now collecting Unemployment Insurance and blogging?
Valley - Douglas
Juneau cracks me up... we are talking 15 whole miles!!! WOW
hug-em-then-cut-em
hug-em-then-cut-em wrote:
"The Juneau swim community has grown considerably since the valley pool opened. Accordoing to head coach Scott Griffith and board member Valerie Mertz membership in the Glacier Swim Club is up 25% and at capacity at BOTH pools. The adult masters swim program has doubled in membership with a before- work -program downtown and an after- work- program in the valley"
Since you raised this point I would suggest that you provide information re: how much the swim club is paying annually to CBJ for use at both pools. As a point of interest you may also want to provide information re: how much the CBJ is providing to the swim club annually in coaches salaries and youth grants.
A link to the April minutes of the pool advisory board meeting:
http://www.juneau.org/parkrec/documents/April2012.03Minutes.pdf
Two people in those minutes addressed concerns re: cost of the Masters program. Since the Glacier Swim Club is also administering that program I would be curious what the final outcome of those concerns was.
My point? Numbers of participants is part of the equation but doesn't tell the whole story. If individuals or groups are negotiating lower fees than us "regular" folks, it not only puts more financial pressure on the rest of us but it is also affecting cost recovery and the bottom line.
As the pools go, so goes the rink(s).
Valley-Douglas-GSC
If you want to know, GSC gets $65,000 per year to pay 1/2 of their coach's salary, approximately $25,000 in Youth Scholorship funds and individual swimmers have been given scholarships totally up to $5,000 for out-of-state swims. They also only pay $4.00 per hour per lane use of the pools. That averages out to about $25 per hour total. Second to the schools, they pick their usage times even if that means displacing the general public. They get a pretty sweet deal!!!
Putting a second sheet of ice in the valley is not economically sound. The master plan for the Treadwell Arena already has second sheet placement, the refrigeration unit was installed to accomodate future expansion and the Treadwell Arena has a Zamboni and a back-up Olympia for ice grooming. They have experienced staff in place. The set-up is condusive for a second sheet to be placed horizontal to the current ice, shared refrigeration unit, shared Zamboni and shared staffing. Having another rink in the valley would only double the current costs associated with operating a rink. It would also be detrimental to Treadwell Arena just as Dimond Park Aquatic Center has been detrimental to Augustus Brown. There have been talks within CBJ of closing Augustus Brown on low usage days and staff have done all but stand on their hands to get people into AGB on the weekends. When Dimond Park Aquatic Center opened, the cost recover for Augustus Brown dropped from 38% to 18%. I personally think that looking at expanding Treadwell is the best economical option. I know Valley residents think that it is a matter of convenience, but we need to look at the overall picture in order to save costs of operation and save Treadwell Arena.
Shared Refrigeration No Way and Treadwell Air Pollution
The antiquated and inefficient systems also account for high energy costs resulting in low cost recovery.
As stated in the Treadwell Energy Audit
Cooling Systems
The ice rink is maintained by a 70-ton CIMCO chilling unit that rejects the heat to a rooftop mounted condenser unit. As mentioned, there is no recovery of the rejected heat.
Unfortunately, the existing design sets up a vicious energy consumption cycle. A propane powered Zamboni exhausts water vapor and combustion pollutants such as CO, CO2, NO2 and combustion particles into the building; many ice arena’s experience poor indoor air quality due to Zamboni operation. We recommend that air quality monitoring be performed continuously for these pollutants and that ventilation systems operate continuously, modulating with pollutant level, when the building is occupied.
Not only does this reduce the air quality in the building for the occupants, it is the catalyst for the cycle of conflicting energy demands. As the humidity goes up and hits the 55% setpoint, the propanepowered dehumidifiers are automatically started. They run to try to maintain the humidity level between 45% and 55%. As the exhaust air from the Zamboni concentrates in the arena, the CO2 levels trigger the exhaust fans to bring in outside air to improve air quality for the occupants. The outside air in Juneau is typically much higher in humidity than the desired humidity setpoints inside the arena.
Once the outside air is brought into the building, the humidity sensors then trigger the propane powered dehumidifiers to run once again. This cycle repeats itself every 20 minutes on hockey game days when the Zamboni runs between each period.
Kids chillin on the ice tend to stay out of hot water
Seems the main rink debate centers around two themes.
1. Fear of damage to Treadwell Arena use:
New users from the University and children living within a 5 mile radius of a valley rink, will overflow it, and we will still be left with an ice shortage at Treadwell. This is a good thing. Kids chillin on the ice tend to stay out of hot water. So let's start planning for a third sheet of ice now. Barring my opinion, the study is slated to examine socio-economic impacts of a valley rink on the current rink. Thanks Rep. Munoz for money to do this study. Looking forward to real data.
2. Operating costs:
Two words: heat recapture. Any brief google session will yield more rinks than you want to read about that save 30% or more in operating costs when they capture the heat from their rink instead of buying oil. Ever get behind your freezer? Think of a freezer the size of a rink. It is more than enough to heat locker rooms and spectator areas. In fact, the amount of heat released from an average rink will heat two Olympic swimming pools. So if we build another rink PLEASE do it right! For Treadwell, this would bring cost of recovery into more like an 80% range, and for a rink that heats a neighboring pool or library- would save $ for the pool or library as well.
But the real value in tax payers incurring operating costs from recreational activities like ice arenas and swimming pools, is the investment in our kids. Even if you don't have kids. Because A- they are less likely to become bored hoodlums and rob you, and B- the taxes are less to maintain an ice rink than to pay for a kid in juvenile detention or jail. It takes a village. It's why I live in Juneau.
More Misinformation
According to CBJ Parks and Recreation Aquatics manager Kathy Milhorn there are no plans to reduce the schedule of the town pool.
Additional floating play equipment and a scoreboard that shows movies are planned for the facility.
Ms Milhorn feels the 2 pools are a great benefit to the community and are working very well together to provede more pool time and programs.
Treadwell Air Pollution
"This cycle repeats itself every 20 minutes on hockey game days when the Zamboni runs between each period." - hug-em-then-cut-em
The only time hockey games get a 20 minute Zamboni run is during high school hockey. JDHS has 12 home games during this season and each game runs about 2 hours.
The Adult and Youth league games get 1 hour of ice with no zam in-between periods.
The Treadwell Ice Arena is open this year is from August 13th till April 28th. So what you are saying only happens for 12 days out of that season and for only 2 hours during those days. The normal operation of a Zamboni at the rink is every 1 or 1.5 hours.
Hey Matt
"This cycle repeats itself every 20 minutes on hockey game days when the Zamboni runs between each period." - hug-em-then-cut-em
The ponit he/she made was a second sheet at Treadwell needs seperate mechanical systems,
Can any of the 2nd sheet at Treadwell folks let me know where the $3 MILLION FOR A NEW SHEET AT TREADWELLwill come from and when? Is Sewell selling raffle tickets and cookies? Maybe a car wash in the spring?
Hey Matt
I see no mention of Treadwell needing a separate mechanical system in he/she's post.
All I posted was how much the Zamboni actually runs. I didn’t leave out non-hockey game days and I didn’t try to make it sound like every hockey game gets Zamboni run every period of the game.
Who is Matt?
More pool time and programs?
Is that cover for, "Wow, we sure don't get the revenue that we did before that Valley pool was built." So it will go for the Treadwell. Convenience is great....until you have to pay for it.
The post about building swimming pools and ice rinks to deter juvenile delinquents.....I thought the 88 million dollar JSD budget would take care of that?
Different Meeting?
Mark Miller (the Empire’s Reporter) must have been at a different meeting than I was at. He makes it sound like a street fight, which it was not. Sewell did a good job and frankly held his cool exceptionally well. Wildes displayed a lot of attitude and continually interrupted Sewell’s presentation. And Geldhof didn’t mediate: He participated. More than I cared for, but not nearly as disruptive as Wildes. I came to the meeting to learn more about the subject, to help in making an informed decision if need be. I was disappointed by a few blowhards but still learned quite a bit. My thanks to Sewell for putting this on. And Miller should learn to report more and embellish less.
Rutecki, aynrand, etc.
Regardless of where a second sheet goes it will cost money, I think the 6.5 and 3millionish figures are probably grossly underestimated. No matter where the money comes from to build it, if it is city owned it will have an annual opperating cost that will come out of Juneau tax payers pocket. How are we to slash CBJ parks and rec budget, then add another million in annual operating cost? Maybe Mr. Rutecki, or aynrand, can help find a way to get Rep. Munoz to also provide an endowment for operating cost for 20 yrs. then it will keep kids out of trouble because their parents will be able to afford to take them to the rink. Hockey has always been an upper-middle class sport that I was fortunate enough to play my entire life. I shutter to think of the cost that I will incur as my kids grow and want to play hockey. If there is more ice with the same number of users, costs go up to off set lower usage. Costs go up, less fortunate families can't afford to have their children play hockey. This isn't a debate about TMHS having a hockey team or "if you don't support rink x then you don't support hockey". If there is a way to fund it all without making my taxes soar through the roof, while keeping costs low so that the average family can afford to let their kids play hockey or figure skate then please proceed. I want to know how they will build it and how they will annually pay for it.