City Manager Kim Kiefer received direction from the City and Borough of Juneau Assembly Committee of the Whole Monday night to bring back more information at a future meeting on a possible study to determine the feasibility of a new, city-operated ice arena.
The Juneau Community Foundation, a nonprofit organization to which $650,000 was appropriated by the Alaska State Legislature this year for planning and study of an ice rink in Dimond Park, requested that the CBJ consider operating the facility.
President Eric Kueffner of the JCF told the Assemblymembers that his organization, while willing to act as a “conduit” for the funds and manage the construction, does not have the capacity to staff and run an ice rink.
“We are a small nonprofit with one part-time employee,” Kueffner said. “We can’t manage a facility once it’s started. … We wanted to assure ourselves that the city was willing to explore alternatives and ways to operate and manage this facility, because the Community Foundation is really not prepared to take it on as an ongoing, continuing project.”
Brent Fischer, director of Juneau Parks and Recreation, estimated he has personally spent more than 300 hours studying the practicability of a second rink at Dimond Park and how practical it would be for the CBJ to assume management of it. Parks and Recreation has held two public meetings to gather ideas (http://bit.ly/RkIShx).
But Fischer told the committee that with use of the existing Treadwell Ice Arena in decline and cost recovery at just 49 percent in fiscal year 2012, he does not see a new city rink as feasible.
“The demand just does not indicate a current need for an additional sheet of ice,” Fischer said. Based on Treadwell’s cost recovery, he added, “The CBJ just cannot afford it.”
Assemblymember Randy Wanamaker thanked Fischer, saying, “I think it’s very important that an assessment be as open and frank as possible — realistic — and it certainly sounds that way.”
Fischer’s assessment came in spite of several emails and letters from members of the public, some of whom suggested using energy savings or non-city labor to save on operating costs, expressing support for a new sheet of ice. Those letters were included in a packet distributed to assemblymembers and available to members of the public at the Committee of the Whole worksession.
After Wanamaker spoke, Mayor Merrill Sanford said he would like to see part of the $650,000 appropriation be used for an independent feasibility study.
“I think that that’s part of the package of that $650,000 that was assigned to all this, is to do that analysis,” Sanford said. “I know that we’ve done our own within house. I think it’s only fair that we do an independent-type one and look at all the pros and cons of doing this, and coming back and then looking at that information and basing our decision on not only our preliminary information that we have from our staff, but also from an independent group.”
Wanamaker agreed that a study should be done independently, but warned that a comprehensive study would have a lot of components, could be very expensive and would demand staff time in determining what should be examined.
Assemblymember Johan Dybdahl said he thought the Assembly would require additional information on the feasibility of operating another rink before making any sort of a commitment.
“It seems to me that any real action by the Assembly at this time … is premature,” Dybdahl said. “We won’t be able to make that decision unless we get that information. … I think the best we can do at this point, or should do, is simply outline the kind of information that we think we need in order to make a decision about managing such a facility after it were to be built.”
While Assemblymember Jesse Kiehl said he is sympathetic to user groups that have sought more available ice (http://bit.ly/S90sFS), he noted that the legislative appropriation is specifically marked for study of a Dimond Park location, thereby preventing the use of that money to study whether expanding Treadwell would be more cost-effective.
“I think it would be worth it … to look at more than one potential site and see if we can find that if a second sheet is justified, what’s the most efficient way to do it?” Kiehl said.
The Legislature has not yet committed to appropriating more money to the project beyond the $650,000 planning and design grant, which Dybdahl mentioned as he expressed skepticism of a CBJ commitment.
“I don’t know that we should use any part of that $650,000 even to do a study,” said Dybdahl. “Even if we get it complete, there’s still the matter of seeking funding for construction.”
Dybdahl also brought up the specter of negative effects for Treadwell similar to the decline in usage that Augustus Brown Swimming Pool has seen since the construction of the Dimond Park Aquatic Center, noting Fischer’s statistics showing an overall trend downward in Treadwell’s number of users from its mid-2000s peak.
“If you build the sheet out at Mendenhall, surely the Treadwell will be in further decline,” Dybdahl said, adding, “I just have a hard time even making that first step.”
According to Fischer’s presentation, cost recovery at Augustus Brown has fallen from 40 percent to less than 24 percent since DPAC was built.
Asked by Wanamaker for a summary of what Kiefer had heard so far, Kiefer said it was a “mixed bag.”
“Just looking at what we have at … Treadwell, trying to make up the difference of $380,000 in fund subsidy, I don’t know how we can do that,” said Kiefer, referring to the $378,066 difference in FY12 between Treadwell’s profits and its expenditures that the city must make up. “But if you feel you need an outside entity to come in and look at it, and look at all those pieces, I can sit down with Eric and whomever else from the Juneau Community Foundation, come up with a scope of work, bring it back to you and say, ‘Does this cover what you need?’ knowing that there’s going to be a … big piece of it that city has to keep being involved with, and that will take the priority of Engineering staff, Parks and Rec staff, and potentially others.”
When Sanford offered a motion to direct Kiefer to bring back a basic request for proposal “to move forward with an analysis” to the Assembly and asked for unanimous consent, several assemblymembers objected.
“I want to be sure that in this whole process, that we’re going to look at something that includes looking at Treadwell, and if we are, then I want to see a portion outside of the funds that would be expended on just Dimond,” said Dybdahl. “I’d like to see that as part of that report or request for proposal.”
Kiefer said she could work with the JCF on how expensive it would be to study a second sheet of ice elsewhere, to which Dybdahl agreed.
Assemblymember Karen Crane still objected. She said Kiefer should be directed to gather information only, not put together a request for proposal.
“We’re not developing an RFP. You’re only information-gathering at this point and listing what information the city would have to have. That’s it,” Crane said.
When Sanford affirmed Crane’s statement, she said, “Then I don’t have an objection.”
Wanamaker assented, saying, “Because we’re only developing information at this point, I withdraw my objection.”
With the clarifications noted, the motion carried with unanimous consent.
The location of a second sheet of ice has been a source of contention in recent months, with proponents of a Valley rink expressing enthusiasm over the legislative grant and some others arguing that a second rink should be added onto Treadwell instead (http://bit.ly/TkESxj).
• Contact reporter Mark D. Miller at 523-2279 or at mark.d.miller@juneauempire.com.
Comments (50)
Add comment“The CBJ just cannot afford
“The CBJ just cannot afford it.” ~ Brent Fischer, director of Juneau Parks and Recreation
And no one will listen...
"Brent Fischer, director of
"Brent Fischer, director of Juneau Parks and Recreation, estimated he has personally spent more than 300 hours studying the practicability of a second rink at Dimond Park"
I looked up Brent Fischer's salary and benefits online. Based on that information it means that taxpayers have already spent $19,500 for Fischers' work on this proposed project. Almost 20 grand just on the Parks and Rec Director. Who knows how many other CBJ employees have been involved in the process so far, and how many hours (and dollars) we've paid for?
The old pool is losing (more) money since the new pool was built. The education budget has exploded since the new high school was built. Numbers don't lie. The current arena is losing money - which (in the real world) would never provide any kind of justification to build another one.
Such spoiled, privileged, over-indulged, entitled, out-of-touch fools we have in this town.
How About
We propose building the rink with a second floor designed to house a library? That should at least treble the design and construction costs and probably at least double the operation cost. It would be just perfect for the city.
Nope, Nada,
Just read the article, that, in its self is enough study. Why waste the revenue? No need exists except in a few peoples minds, and remember "Manage" in this case includes "maintain" just another funding mandate for funds that do not exist.
CBJ needs to keep track of their time...
...and bill the recipients of the $650.000 state grant. I object to paying city officials' salary wile working on this boondoggle.
Decline alone...
Throwing money away aside, the decline in attendance at the Treadwell Arena alone should be reason enough not to move forward. Does that not show a lack of need? If yes, then we are talking about a want. When I was campaigning, at least three individuals told me they wanted the Valley Rink because of the long drive to Douglas. No offense to those who feel that way; but it is not a viable reason to spend millions in order to prevent an 8-mile drive; even if it is 100's of 8-mile drives. There were others, who also said there was a need because of a lack of ice time; which I would then agree on moving forward in the feasibility study; however, now that there is a decline, there should also be ice time freed up.
About the money, the construction costs and operating costs could buy another teacher for every school, right? There have already been two articles about a need for a teacher at Harborview, and one at Auke Bay School. If there is not money available to allocate to the school district, we should not be considering a major construction, especially on top of the four other major constructions that were just voted Yes on, in the beginning of this month. Why are our eyes constantly bigger than our wallets in this town?
State appropriations
Why is this state funding given to a nonprofit? If the intent is to have the City build, own, and operate the facility, why wasn't the $650K given to the City as well?
I would be OK with the City donating a piece of land to JCF to build the facility on, funded out of donations and private financing, and operated from user revenue.
Come on...
How may people who post here skate? Not many. When I heard a friend was taking skating lessons I thought she was learning how to leave work early- just skate. Look into a multiuse facility!
Instead of building multiple
Instead of building multiple buildings and duplicating costs over and over, we should have done it right in the first place.
http://www.whitehorse.ca/index.aspx?page=163
Or maybe think about it
Or maybe think about it logically. It is only open during winter, when I can go outside and skate, when I have to skate down Egan to get there, only to find out it is booked solid with hockey practice, figure skating lessons etc. Even when the schedule has said it was open skate. Have a dedicated time for people to just go skate for fun, make it long enough that you dont have five hundred people all trying to use it in the brief window its open skate, or be open year round. I don't currently use the skate rink very often as it is a challenge, but a second one with a usable schedule would get used more
Photonut, I agree.
Photonut, I agree. Whitehorse has a great facility
Whitehorse.....
Right, but Whitehorse is also heavily subsidized by taxes from other parts of Canada.
Mill rate in Whitehorse 1.146
GST tax 5%
That doesn't pay for the kind of facility they have.
Just Wondering
Is Treadwell Arena only used as a rink? If it is, it seems to me that is a serious misuse of the facility. If useage is in decline, can it be used as a place for concerts, motocross, arena football, demolition derbies, etc? Seems like it may make up for the decline in use. Just wondering.
Do it right
Photonut right on!
Swimmergirl your right,Whitehorse's facility was built with fed money.
It was built for the Canada winter games and has since accommodated many other events that help bring in large amounts of revenue.
TREADWELL on the other hand as with every other Juneau public facility has been built as inexpensive as possible so it doesn't ruffle the feathers of the oh so many vocal nimby's this town seems to produce.
Let's start thinking bigger! How about 20 years down the road. Lets build a new arena that will support large events like let's say the arctic winter games or state hockey tournaments, trade shows etc.
let's get the university on board. They can grow a ice sports program Or reinvent there basketball team. U of A has tons of money.
Lets build it and build it right. It should have 2000-4000 seats, a warm area to view the ice, a pub like eating space with adult beverages, lease a space for yet another subway, have a small arcade area, pro shop, curling ice and club room, classrooms and maybe lease some space to physical therapy. The possibilities are endless.
Get the cruise lines that control the commerce of this town to chip in, they owe us residents big time, how much taxes have we paid to encourage their viability? Who cares if there is a neon princess or carnival sign on the outside of our new state of the art arena.
Just build it and build it right.
Follow the money
Follow the money and ask why State House Rep. Cathy Munoz didn’t even consult with CBJ before seeking funding for a project that would dramatically financially impact the entire city. Especially, as this is a direct lobbying effort from a local, non-profit. CBJ should bill her for this mess. I am sure we could use the near three-quarters of a million dollars for other projects. This should have been blown out the water last night and then let Munoz clean up her own mess.
Who saw to it that JCF got
Who saw to it that JCF got $650,000 appropriated by the Alaska State Legislature?
Do it Right
Slapshot--Agree with you 100%!!!!!
Just Say NO!
Why do a feasibility study on an 2nd ice rink that the city cannot afford to subsidize? A classic case of getting the cart before the horse or do I smell politics?
Come on Assembly Members..... do the tough stuff that we voted you in office to do. Just say NO and before any more city employees spend our tax dollars looking into this overindulgent Santa wish.
A second ice rink located in the valley sounds great. I personally love the idea BUT the city cannot afford it.
If a valley ice rink was built I believe just as Augustus Brown has declined since the Dimond Pool was built, the Treadwell arena use would also continue to decline. These decreased user numbers for existing facilities represent lost dollars and additional costs to the city.
In times like these it is just a matter of math and the numbers just don't add up to build a valley ice rink.
Voters passed it, ink matter
Voters passed it, ink matter what, money is going to be spent.
20 years down the road
Yes, by all means let's look 20 years down the road. Kim Kiefer's recent comment is that the current budget is unsustainable.
The assembly is perfectly happy to rubber stamp every want to a vote, and the voters are happy to pass them all until shazam! the sky falls one day and we can't anymore. Lots of communities down south have had the sky fall and it ain't pretty.
If a group wants to build and operate another ice rink, let them, and good luck to them. Why waste more public dollars on something we can't afford. Assembly, backbone please.
Folow The Money
I think this is the politics I was talking about!
Voters passed it, ink matter
Sorry but voters didn't pass this. Nothing of the sort.
A non profit organization is the recipient of money that was obtained by Cathy Munoz and her efforts. Well intentioned she may have been BUT doesn't sound like she checked in with the city to see if they wanted or could afford or were interested in managing, operating and funding this rink.
A case of Valley Ice Rink Fever! Everyone lost their logical process.
IF a second sheet of ice was
IF a second sheet of ice was warranted in Juneau, which by all accounts it isn't, it really does just make more sense to either 1) save some money in construction costs and co-locate it with Treadwell OR 2) build a multi-sheet facility elsewhere with the idea of closing down Treadwell. There is no reason to have separate sheets of ice located miles apart.
With multiple sheets in one facility, Juneau could host larger tournaments, the venue would be more attractive to potential concession area vendors, and more dasher board advertising would likely be sold, perhaps with some revenue sharing with the area figure skating and/or hockey clubs. Two separate sheets would just double the maintenance costs without any of these potential benefits.
Again, however, at this point the numbers just don't seem to support a second sheet of ice in the city. Inconvenient ice times and a 15 minute drive just aren't enough justification to spend the money required to build a new rink. (Keep in mind that the original request for this project was for up to $8.7 million.)
P.S. A good repository for information related to the whole rink issue can be found at: http://juneaurinkfacts.org
agree with jsoza
it is not too late to salvage the idea of a bigger facility at Treadwell. I understand the Arena was built as a modular to accommodate pushing the structure out toward the softball field to lay down a second sheet, or seasonal motocross (?).
You can still have your warm food court with wireless access at Treadwell, and Paul Nowlin is right, the drive does not justify the expense. Build it and they will drive.
give the money back
JCF could always return the cash to the State of Alaska.
Off-the-cuff
After reading through the comments a thought came to mind. Now don't throw stones, I have not looked into it, and this is only an off-the-cuff thought; I AM NOT SUGGESTING WE DO WHAT I MENTION BELOW.
What would the cost be to move the Treadwell Arena to the Valley (Diamond Park)? I have seen large buildings moved before it is possible. If it could be moved at a "reasonable" cost, would that be something people would be willing to accept? I know the Valley has 50% of the population, but I do not know how the skaters/hockey players are distributed, so this may be taking from one to give to another; which I am against. If it was affordable, and would not be detrimental to Douglas for reasons unbeknownst to myself, maybe it is a possible solution.
That being said, I doubt the above is likely to be a viable solution, but just trying to throw out an alternative; because I wouldn't be surprised to see this get pushed through one way or another.
Conflicting Info & @BJ
Some of the information sounds conflicting; in that, the attendance is declining, yet people keep reporting their is no free time there. Could this simply be a scheduling problem? Can we rearrange the timing of things? How can attendance be down, but the place is always packed? Is someone getting preferential treatment over other groups? Anyone know anything about this phenomenon? Probably just something I am not thinking of, but it seems odd.
@BJ - I thought about that to, give the money back. We are looking to spend a dollar to not lose the shiny penny the State gave us.
Looking backwards,
sometimes solves issues, water freezes in the winter? Mendenhall lake, Auke lake, ect. skate there, build a fire to keep warm! Dig a few new lakes! Flood a basket ball court, Do something else in the summer, it's good for Ya!
Give it up, aleady!
People are STILL wanting to spend Alaska's taxpayer money to do a study to state the obvious?
No wonder our nation is in the hole financially
What the heck happened to common sense?
Paul
Most of the cost of that building is probably in the site prep, foundation, utilities, and the labor to construct. The salvage value of the steel structure is probably not more than 25% of the overall cost.
It might make more financial sense to convert the building to another use and relocate the ice mechanical stuff to a new Valley rink.
Or do nothing and return the cash, or ask if we can use it for something else that benefits the community at large.