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![Capital City Fire/Rescue Fire Training Officer Nathan Young demonstrates the difference between a "straight stick" ladder truck, which CCFR has, left, versus a ladder truck with a platform attached to it, right, at his office on Friday. CCFR has been actively striving to purchase a platform ladder engine for the past year and a half without success. Young says the appartus, which costs about $1million dollars, could have helped extinguish the Gastineau Apartments fire quicker. Emily Russo Miller / Juneau Empire](http://jun-cdn.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/superphoto/11716522.jpg "Capital City Fire/Rescue Fire Training Officer Nathan Young demonstrates the difference between a "straight stick" ladder truck, which CCFR has, left, versus a ladder truck with a platform attached to it, right, at his office on Friday. CCFR has been actively striving to purchase a platform ladder engine for the past year and a half without success. Young says the appartus, which costs about $1million dollars, could have helped extinguish the Gastineau Apartments fire quicker. Emily Russo Miller / Juneau Empire")
The downtown apartment complex that was engulfed by a fire last week has long been considered a high-risk building by the fire department, according to fire officials.
The lack of a sprinkler system, numerous void spaces in its construction and poor exterior access are some of the factors that make the historic 95-year-old Gastineau Apartments building a dangerous “target hazard” in terms of firefighting, says the fire department’s chief fire training officer, Nathan Young.
“This is an extremely dangerous building,” Young said in an interview at his office in the downtown Juneau fire station on Friday. “If you were to rate the severity of danger in a building, lets say from one to 10, this is an 11, when you look at firefighting in general.”
The building is not alone in its status as a dangerous building, Young says. Multiple buildings located in the downtown historic area are considered target hazards, especially given their close proximity to one another and because they are not required to have a sprinkler system.
CBJ Building Codes Official Charlie Ford said in an interview that buildings are subjected to codes that are in place at the time the buildings are constructed. The Gastineau Apartments were built in 1917 before codes were in place, which means it, and other older buildings in town, are not required by the International Building Code to have sprinklers.
In the past, the fire department has recommended retrofitting the buildings, but Young said those recommendations were usually met with resistance due to the cost involved.
“I don’t believe it’s been met with a lot of support because it’s very costly to do, but then again you can see the cost of not having a sprinkler system,” Young said.
It could have made a difference in this case, Young said. The cause of the fire is undetermined and still under investigation, but the fire marshal says it’s highly likely it began with an unattended candle in one of the apartments on the top fourth floor.
“If this was a sprinklered building with a properly operating sprinkler system, this would have been a very small fire that would have been put out in minutes,” Young said. “And nobody would have been displaced, and this building people would be living in it today.”
No injuries or fatalities were reported in the fire, which blazed for nine hours into Tuesday morning, but it did displace the 50 or so residents. The building has since been condemned until it is safe to re-enter, leaving the residents without housing and most of their personal possessions destroyed by either flames or by extensive smoke and water damage. There are also two commercial businesses on its ground floor.
Young added, “A sprinkler system will confine, let’s say a mattress fire or a cooking fire, to its room of origin, and it will protect everybody in the building and their contents, and we have numerous buildings like this downtown that aren’t protected.”
Another concern is that fire can spread undetected in the void spaces, of which the Gastineau Apartments has many since it has been renovated many times over the years. Originally a three-story hotel, a fourth floor and a building on the posterior side of the building, making it into an H-shape, were added later in the 1960s.
“It’s been added on to and renovated so many different times that there are numerous void spaces which the fire can get into and run uncontrolled, and you don’t even know it until it pops up in a completely different part of the building,” Young said.
Aware of the potential danger, fire officers conducted a walk-through of the buildings with maintenance personnel exactly one week prior to the fire in order to re-familiarize themselves with its unique layout and void spaces.
The timing was coincidental, but Young said it was helpful because it made firefighters extra aware as they were fighting the fire.
“Everyone has recognized that in the past,” Young said, “but actually getting through and seeing how many void spaces there are that the fire can run undetected and pop up in places that will literally kill our firemen, it was really in the forefront of everyone’s mind.”
One thing the Gastineau Apartments did have going for it were fire doors in the hallway that separated the original front building and the second back building. The fire doors automatically closed when the fire alarm sounded at about 5 p.m.
“These were actually functioning, so this is why you can see the back side of the ‘H’ is untouched,” Young said. “There’s absolutely no fire damage, other than there’s smoke and water that got in there. But because all these fire doors were closed, the rest of the building is standing. If the fire doors weren’t there or they hadn’t been functioning, this entire building would have burned, which would have been horrifically scary.”
Fire Marshal Daniel Jager said in an interview that the Gastineau Apartments was not in violation during its last fire department inspection, which was conducted recently. Jager said there have been violations in the past.
The Empire could not obtain documentation of the past violations since the fire department is in the process of updating its filing system, Jager said. The deputy fire marshal in charge of that project was not in the office this week, Jager said.
Firefighters managed to contain the fire to the fourth-floor of the building, but Young says it was difficult to extinguish in part because the fire department did not have the necessary type of fire truck.
“We couldn’t get water underneath the roof where it was burning,” Young said, noting firefighters could blast water into the third-story and below windows and onto the collapsing roof.
Young said what the effort required was a ladder truck with an aerial platform on the end of the ladder. It has more mobility than the “straight stick” ladder trucks the fire department has now, Young said. It’s also safer than what the fire department has, Young said.
“A platform, you can put multiple guys in here, and you can pump twice the water that this can, and you have much better reach and you can get down, actually get up and over it to penetrate down into (the fourth floor of the building),” Young said. “That’s what was needed here, but we didn’t have it.”
Young says the fire department has been actively trying to purchase an aerial platform ladder truck for the past year and a half without success. It would cost about a million and a half dollars.
• Contact reporter Emily Russo Miller at 523-2263 or at emily.miller@juneauempire.com.
Comments (29)
Add commentBuildings
"The building is not alone in its status as a dangerous building, Young says. Multiple buildings located in the downtown historic area are considered target hazards..."
Names! Let's hear the names of these other buildings.
I'm also surprised that the insurance companies don't jack up the rates on these buildings to reflect the financial risk. At some point installing sprinklers would be cheaper than paying high premiums.
Is there anything the City could do to help building owners finance the installation of sprinklers? If one of these fires get out of control, we've lost downtown Juneau.
Instead of (or as well as)
Instead of (or as well as) pursuing grants that fund new and expensive recreation facilities, CBJ should be pursuing grants to fund the installation of sprinkler systems in aging buildings. If the downtown burns it won't matter much that we got a new rink.
NO GRANTS!
There is no reason we should give grants to businesses to update their sprinkler systems when offering them a low interest loan would accomplish the same thing. The Barret's were in contact with the fire department so it shouldn't come to some big surprise that they should have installed sprinklers. The city has better things to do than pass out free money to people who are grossing $360,000 (30 units@ 1,000) plus a year. If we're going to give a handout then give it to the former occupants.
Another Note
The city could require the installation of sprinkler systems as a mandatory requirement or be condemned. When you give people the choice they will likely say no because of the expense and the inconvenience. It's a safety issue if one has it and the building next to it doesn't they it's not going to be as effective.
NO TO THE HANDOUTS!
I think CBJ, the Fire Dept.
I think CBJ and the Fire Dept. has some explaining to do because they are at fault here for knowingly allowing occupancy in a dangerous building. They should have deemed it unfit for occupancy especially knowing that the renters were old, disabled, and poor. Did CBJ even bother to inform the renters that they were living in a dangerous building? Lets be clear here - CBJ, if you allow it - then you better be dam sure IT IS SAFE.
The public has an expectation that the people employed at CBJ, the Fire Department, JPD, the Planning Dept. etc... are doing their jobs and their jobs are all about public safety, to insure the public's safety - this is why we are paying them, this is what they are paid to do - insure public safety. I am certain that if they can't do their jobs then there are at least 100 people waiting in line that will do their jobs for them.
Get off your butts CBJ employees and do your jobs.
The don't call us with your concerns, we will call you attitude, has to end before people are killed.
“This is an extremely dangerous building,”
Are potential renters advised of the risk they are taking by renting one of these apartments.
"In the past, the fire department has recommended retrofitting the buildings, but Young said those recommendations were usually met with resistance due to the cost involved."
“I don’t believe it’s been met with a lot of support because it’s very costly to do, but then again you can see the cost of not having a sprinkler system,” Young said.
The first thing that popped into my mind when reading this article was some peoples philosophy of letting the private sector do everything. ----First turn everything over to the "states" or better yet, let the private sector do it. -----What a perfect example of what the private sector is prepared to do for anything if it's going to cost money. This fire could have potentially cost fifty people their lives. If the owners can't afford to make the buildings safe they should not own the buildings, period. They should be forced to conform to the International Building Code. I or any one of you could be in one of those buildings shopping and end up being trapped and dead in a fire, all the while assuming it's safe. Outrageous. This whole article is very disturbing.
Government town
I knew some body would start shrieking about more government.
I wasn't going to get into this but
So now we are pushing for a new multi-million dollar fire truck. Here’s what I witnessed: I was watching this fire accelerate from the street between the Elk’s and Baranof (First Street) from about 5:15. There were about 50 people rubber-necking with me by then. We watched this fire grow for about 45 minutes (it was right at 6) before CCFR came in from behind Baranof and finally responded. If you look at the picture that was supplied by the CCFR today, you’ll see this large opening on the left that is presumably a stairwell (I’m guessing here). There were flames blowing out of this opening 20 to 30 feet in the air like a giant flare. Everyone witnessing this (from this side) collectively could not believe the fire department was not fighting this fire from this venue. We watched two firefighters walk up First Street at about 5:30. One of them dug out his camera and took a picture and walked back to Franklin. The other one stood there with the rest of the gawkers until the engine arrived, at about 6:00. Now I am not a fire engineer here, but it seems to me that maybe a more comprehensive attack plan would have had the fire-fighters pouring water on this from above, not below, especially through this “chimney”. Maybe the need is really for enhanced fire management skills, better fire-fighter training and especially more man-power through better volunteer recruitment etc. These could all be done without throwing another couple million bucks of our tax-payers money at a new apparatus. What good is a new high-tech ladder-truck when apparently there is no-one around to man it?
Fueled up trucks?
Listening to the scanner around 6:30 pm and the fire department was calling for emergency fuel for their fire trucks. I thought hmmm wonder why the trucks were running out of fuel after only 1 hour or so fighting the fire....
Fueled up trucks?
Listening to the scanner around 6:30 pm and the fire department was calling for emergency fuel for their fire trucks. I thought hmmm wonder why the trucks were running out of fuel after only 1 hour or so fighting the fire....
The current building codes
The current building codes call for sprinklers in single family homes. Are we ready for the government to come in and require us all to retrofit our homes?
Privately owned buildings are no different. If there is not a law on the books requiring sprinklers to be retrofitted very few people will do it. There are several large buildings in town that have retrofitted sprinklers because it is a good idea. The government can only work within the confines of the laws.
Juneau requires more new buildings to have sprinklers than most other communities in the state.
If you would like more buildings retrofitted with sprinklers contact the assembly and demand it. I know the FD has proposed ordinances in the past and met with strong resistance. Nation wide, the Home Builders Assocations have fought sprinkler requirements as it adds cost to construction.
To make any change in the laws it takes assembly action. The assembly acts on the will of the people. If you believe in making real change beyond a rant in a blog at the end of a story, contact your lawmakers and demand changes.
Sprinklers save lives and property.
Fireguy -
Fireguy – I believe most homes in Juneau do not require sprinkler systems because of their size and the built in fire wall protections. There is also a huge difference between residential homes and commercial apartment buildings.
Residential homes are not businesses renting apartments to the public.
I think the public counts on our city government to make sure places of business are safe especially when it comes to apartment buildings. Government role is oversight and most private businesses do cut costs when and where they can.
The men and women of Capital
The men and women of Capital City Fire Rescue both Career and Volunteer did an outstanding job at the Gastineau Apartment fire.
There are people alive today due to the actions of these firefighters.
If anyone has concerns or comments on the strategy and tactics employed they can contact me directly.
Fuel was called for early as it is difficult to obtain late at night. These are large engines running at a high RPM, they will need fuel after a few hours of running. This call was preemptive not an emergency.
Water was not poured in the back window as crews were inside working on search and rescue. Pouring water in that window would force fire to the unburned part of the floor trapping or burning people.
The fire department is not clambering for a multi million dollar truck. All of our equipment purchased are planned 20+ years out. We are scheduled to replace our oldest ladder truck in just a few years.
Please don't discredit the hard work and dedication of our firefighters. This department is second to none in the state of Alaska 100% due to the people in the department.
If you would like to know more about how the department operates or you have concerns how it operates, contact me or come down to a station and talk with us. We are happy to discuss any of our operations.
I would also like to thank the community for their outpouring of support.
r_etheridge@me.com
Thank you for setting the
Thank you for setting the record straight with your logical explanations, Mr. Etheridge. CCFR staff and volunteers are outstanding and did an excellent job with this fire (as well as the others last week). If people are seriously questioning how the job was done, or think they can do better - I'm sure CCFR has plenty of room for more volunteers!
I am not discrediting the
I am not discrediting the work or the dedication of our fire fighters.
I think what people are having a problem with is that this building passed the fire inspection even though it was considered a huge fire hazard. It makes me wonder.
Are we all to question the results of FD inspections now; if something is deemed safe is it really safe? Why have FD inspections if the public is misled into thinking something is safe when in fact their lives are at risk?
There is no logic here, I see bad thinking, and it is the type of thinking that gives Government a bad name. Please FD if something is hazardous then something has to be done about it, and the public must be told. Just think if these people had all died.
johnny
I love all the monday morning quarterback who comment after high-prophile incidents. If you are not a firefighter and never have been one, then how in the world are you going to sit here and question their tactics?! Do firefighters show up to your work and critique how you do your job? If you know so much about fighting fires, why were you not there in bunker gear showing them how to do it?! And you were right saying you are not a "fire engineer" keep to whatever else it is that you do and leave the firefighting to the professionals!
Old News - Ignorant "Civilians"
Eric Mohrmann went before the Assembly many years ago and warned of the hazards these unprotected structures pose. One day, a fire will break out when the wind is howling at 70 mph and CCF/R will be searching the rubble for bodies, tower truck or no tower truck. It will not be their fault, merely what happens when elected officials, builders, and property owners place a low value on automatic fire protection. The data on sprinklers is irrefutable, but ignored. What is a life worth?
EVERY new structure, INCLUDING single-family homes, should have fire sprinklers. Installation of a sprinkler system is no more expensive than any other upgrade. People think nothing of paying for the upgrade from carpet to hardwood floors or adding a half bath for convenience, but fire sprinklers? That's why I have insurance! Most civilian fire deaths are not in apartments or hotels, they occur in single family homes.
Everyone gets worked up after a fire or disaster for a week or two, then their memories fade, other challenges take priority, and the emergency responders are once again the only ones thinking about life safety and the dangers associated with target hazards.
The sad part is, there was
The sad part is, there was one fatality. A cat named Boots perished in the fire. I would call that a fatality. The woman who loved him will most certainly be devasted at the loss of a beloved pet. My heart goes out to her in this time of her loss.
good idea
I'm happy to hear that people are starting to realize the importance of automatic sprinkler systems they work you can't put a price on people's lives. Good job capital city fire men!
sefisher, if the city put
sefisher, if the city put pressure on the building owner, or shut down the buildings without fire suppression, the owners would have a BIG problem with that. The fire department told the building owner (and the mayor/assembly on other old buildings) that sprinklers were needed and Mr. Barrett chose not to make that upgrade. It seems that the "accountability" is being misplaced here.
This would be like having a mechanic inspect your car, and having them tell you that a repair was needed because the car was unsafe. If you choose to keep driving the car and not make the repair and then end up in an accident, you can't later blame the mechanic for not confiscating your "unsafe" car. Owners need to take responsibility for their own property!
http://juneauempire.com/stories/090104/loc_sprinklers.shtml
http://juneauempire.com/stories/040607/loc_20070406028.shtml
Extraordinary Men & Women....
For the not-so-gentle man who chose to post one of the more offensive comments I have seen....I can say that I was there over 7 hours (and not as a gawking observer) as the FINE men and women fought this blaze, and all I want to say is if you think that you can do it better, than I dare you to do it. CCFR is always in need of volunteers, but due to the strenuous nature of the work (try it and you will see), they are hard to acquire and even harder to retain. And please get your facts straight. CCFR was there in full force by 6pm, if you had done a 360 of the building you would have seen numerous streams of water and nearly all of the apparatus in force....but you didn't because men and women made sure that civilians were a safe distance away. Obviously you don't know anything about fire science or your ignorant post would have never been made. It was offensive and belittling of the men and women who worked around the clock to keep downtown Juneau from burning, and who kept every single person in that building alive and well. I sure hope that you have already submitted your volunteer application after all of those snide remarks about the performance of our fire department, seems like you think you know what you are talking about, can't wait to see you at the next fire...in gear!
As a tax payer I would like
As a tax payer I would like to know which buildings in Juneau are unsafe and why. By all means CBJ make this information available to the public. Post it on the front of the building for god sakes. Who cares if that pis ses off the owner of the building the priority is the safety of the people.
I would say any old building
I would say any old building with high occupant loads, limited egress and a poor maintenance history.
Look Up
Look up when you enter any of the old buildings downtown. If you can't see sprinklerheads, it is probably one of the buildings you should worry about. The downtown movie theater always scared ME the most. I nearly had a panic attack every time I watched a movie upstairs!
Without knowing all the
Without knowing all the variables most people yelling for this and that just don't know what they are talking about. Same ol same ol. Get informed before you blow a gasket and start demanding requirements for which you have no knowledge about.
I think I know
There are uninformed posters all over the Internet, but I am not one of them. I have a quarter century of fire service experience, four of those years in Juneau. The data speaks for itself and the IFC mandates automatic fire sprinklers in all new construction. Misguided politicians keep allowing exceptions to the code. The fire service's greatest failure over the last century has been not advocating prevention. We, as an industry, have not been good servants and should feel partially responsible for every death in an unprotected structure.
Pyroknight
Any idea what the cost of retrofitting a sprinkler system in a commerical building would be, per sq. ft? It seems like it'd be very high if it requires opening up walls and ceilings in addition to a lot of plumbing. Such a project would probably displace the business and/or residents for quite some time, but I don't know....
Cost all depends on the
Cost all depends on the construction of the building. Some buildings are not nearly as expensive as others. If you have to core drill lots of concrete walls the price will climb quickly.
Many residential occupancies can be done with plastic Blazemaster pipe that glues together. This route drastically reduces costs.
Any of the sprinkler companies will come out and provide an estimate.
New Mayor?
I hear that the new mayor may take a stronger stance on this business of the dangerous buildings downtown. How about the 20th Century building that has had 22 vacant units of housing since the 80's? http://juneauempire.com/local/2012-07-23/downtown-revitalization-suffers...
I just wonder when the fire department last walked through that place?